tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post922660747117040202..comments2024-03-25T19:07:29.729+00:00Comments on Steve's Bus & Train Page: Trains v Buses - They Both Have Their PlaceSteve Whttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-11314949819735955222018-07-01T16:32:03.742+01:002018-07-01T16:32:03.742+01:00Yes (again) got that, though it might not just be ...Yes (again) got that, though it might not just be fares but routes/timetables too, in fact anything!<br /><br />Borderbus and Stephensons (at least sometimes) can do it, and other small independents who deserve a mention too, even Stagecoach (sometimes, though I'm told their treatment of staff locally is atrocious and they've plenty of complaining customers, though with Cambridge traffic I suspect it is inevitable). So why does two-way communication give First and Go-Ahead such trouble? They know it, because they make the Twitter gesture (which done badly is actually often more of an insult).<br /><br />I know in Colchester the First passengers pull their hair out at the Company's wilful ignorance of the obvious, so much so that it is putting the business at jeopardy. Why? Both Chelmsford and Basildon are close runners-up in the idiocy stakes.<br /><br />As you so rightly point out we've been there before with Anglian. Haven't they learned anything?smurfukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812247601237248526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-66114138110195678162018-07-01T10:32:52.878+01:002018-07-01T10:32:52.878+01:00You just summed up the demise of Anglian perfectly...You just summed up the demise of Anglian perfectly. I do refer you to the Beccles Town Service, which is a perfect example of the compromises you were talking about. <br /><br />I'm a bit concerned about you talking this much sense in one thread - I'm really not used to it!!!!!Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-8152014788958003742018-07-01T10:11:22.208+01:002018-07-01T10:11:22.208+01:00I thing the regulations should allow bus companie...I thing the regulations should allow bus companies to make a small charge for passholders where a service is marginal or loss making say capped at 25% of the standard adult fare<br /><br />I agree with the other posts in that bus companies do not engage with their customers at all and that their market research and advertising of services is all but non existent. Unfortunately local councils are even worse, An example of the daft ideas they come up with can be seen on Suffolk On Board. They have but on two journeys a day from Glemsford to the Sudbury Health Centre. Now how is that of any real use to anyone<br /><br />Another thing you can find on there is the Public Transport Forum. It held three meetings at random intervals . The last being in April 2016 so I think we can say it has ceased. Again there was no involvement of the passengers and the distinct impression I get is SCC have no interest at all in Public transport.East Anglian Bus Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02555951920166671431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-78842137071652837682018-07-01T06:34:00.721+01:002018-07-01T06:34:00.721+01:00And yes Steve, on your other point, I too think th...And yes Steve, on your other point, I too think the bigger picture renders the whole of this discussion irrelevant for First. I too believe that the Eastern Counties company could be ready for take off; if they were under the control of anyone but First.<br /><br />But Wickers has been brought in to prevent that from happening while FirstBus tread water and, more importantly, to try and achieve an orderly wind-down of the basket case that is First Essex. Orderly wind down or disorderly collapse? It is still anyone's guess. But it renders the whole discussion in this thread irrelevant for their poor Essex passengers, at least until their future operators emerge. Watch and wait is the byword, for the time being.<br /><br />But until First can make their minds up about the future of First Bus ... Not only do they seem to have moved no further forward at the end of their five year invisible "recovery plan" that they sold to their investors to persuade them to throw good money after bad, but now they seem to have no clear idea about the rest of their operations either. Throwing the captain overboard is a start, they're just not sure of what, exactly.<br /><br />So to quote the old saying we can be hopeful, perhaps, but not optimistic.smurfukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812247601237248526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-69598133763732351012018-06-30T10:05:46.818+01:002018-06-30T10:05:46.818+01:00Here in NZ, it common for buses to have bike rack ...Here in NZ, it common for buses to have bike rack on front of bus, here a brand new Optare Metrocity with one on https://www.flickr.com/photos/dx5517/43075174361/in/pool-550789@N21/ can hold 2 bikes at once, rarely seen them in use.<br /><br />Instructions are here https://www.metlink.org.nz/getting-around/using-a-cycle-on-pt/bike-racks-on-buses/<br />dlboihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008433516577532263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-64959258173961818172018-06-30T10:05:09.487+01:002018-06-30T10:05:09.487+01:00You're right Steve my comments could equally h...You're right Steve my comments could equally have referred to the Peterboro' route to the north, but I was actually thinking of the Royston route in the south! Double points!<br /><br />Everything gets hung up on money. Right, of course it does. But do we have to before we've even started, too? Let's perhaps concentrate a bit on what we can do rather than what we can't. The financing and congestion issues do need to be addressed as a society, but it's a slow and cumbersome process which none of us control. Something else is needed, too.<br /><br />My starting point is that the companies have problems running many routes viably, and their passengers have problems with using many of the routes that they do run too. So instead of each getting in their bunkers and shouting in desperation at each other, why can't they seek some common ground and a compromise? The companies get what they want and the passengers do too, but each has to give ground to get it too. It can't happen without management who talk with the passengers, rather than just at them. It means change for everybody, but without change there is no progress.<br /><br />Here's two golden rules for bus managers:<br />1. If your customers are saying "we could tell the company what they should do but they just won't listen", you've failed. And believe me, they are saying it, a lot. Before we dismiss it all as impractical rubbish, how do you know unless you've talked with them? Often it's not A or B, but somewhere in between. Think, outside your box.<br />2. When your customers don't understand what game you're playing at (apart from fleecing them endlessly, when they've given up trying), you've failed.<br />You need to get together with your customers (and your drivers, who know more than you do about what is going on the ground) and work something out. It's how we solve problems.<br /><br />My feeling is that both sides "know" what the other want and is like. The trouble is they don't, because they never bother to find out. In the case of the companies they won't (shut eyes and hands over ears) and in the case of the poor passengers (and equally important would-be passengers) they simply can't because no-one bothers to listen to them. Try open minds rather than just open mouths. Yes, it challenges the "do as you're told" corporate culture (even when it's dressed up as "culture change". Been there, done that). We have to.<br /><br />Let's have a new motto. Drop "use it or lose it" which we should have left in the 1970s with "take it or leave it" (which means "leave it" for most of us).<br /><br />"Let's work it out, together". Try it. As for the politicians and the Commissioners, they're our servants, not our masters. We don't need intermediaries, unless we've failed. But why should we set out to fail in the first place?smurfukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812247601237248526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-89426607480011194972018-06-29T21:21:51.279+01:002018-06-29T21:21:51.279+01:00Great to hear Borderbus being able to get the comm...Great to hear Borderbus being able to get the community on their side. However, I do believe when Anglian dropped the route, customers were worried about the loss of service, and pass holders have only helped them, as they saw a company pull out first hand.<br /><br />If First or Konect said to their passengers about a possible withdrawal of service, I don't think it would be met with the same response, however, definitely worth a go.<br /><br />Even so, the free bus passes are that. I'm not saying users shouldn't pay a yearly fee, but on routes where there is a high density of older people, getting less than £1 back from NCC is abysmal. Soon the council will be asking operators to carry them free of charge!ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-63768690300404573092018-06-29T21:12:48.209+01:002018-06-29T21:12:48.209+01:00And in some respects you're right, although I ...And in some respects you're right, although I have yet to see evidence of engagement with the community. The one example that has is the Beccles Town Service. Dropped by Anglian, taken over by Borderbus, and now makes a profit. Why? Because Borderbus met with the community and told them straight that they couldn't afford to run it at current revenue levels, and if the community wanted it they might think about leaving their free passes at home occasionally and paying the fare.<br /><br />The community took that on board (pun intended), and now the route makes a profit. Not huge, but enough to guarantee its immediate future. If other communities, such as that on the 85 were persuaded to do the same it might save the route. That means operators engaging with communities for the good of everyone.<br /><br />I also go back to my idea of charging £25 a year for passes, the money then ring fenced by Law to be spent sponsoring loss making services. No pass holder I have questioned has said they would object to that, but is there a politician brave enough to implement it? I doubt it.Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-22830114408665726972018-06-29T21:08:28.245+01:002018-06-29T21:08:28.245+01:00Silly idea but....Increase Council Tax by, let'...Silly idea but....Increase Council Tax by, let's say £10. This is strictly for bus funding. This £10 extra can actually be used to pay for a bus ticket. Therefore, if you use a bus in the year, the council tax rise is zero. If you don't use the bus, then you lose the voucher.<br /><br />Taking into account the population of Norwich, % of people exempt from council tax, % of people using the bus already (meaning there wouldn't be a financial benefit from these people), this could raise £250-£500k per year. Would be hard to roll out, but I believe something like this (not this exactly) is a good way forward.ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-48830676062769283322018-06-29T21:02:43.322+01:002018-06-29T21:02:43.322+01:00No mate - trying to remember where that was! I was...No mate - trying to remember where that was! I was at a jolly concentration camp near Cookham Wood!Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-19396580919418682612018-06-29T20:59:30.770+01:002018-06-29T20:59:30.770+01:00Let's do a case study.
Konect bus 85 is subsi...Let's do a case study.<br /><br />Konect bus 85 is subsidised by NCC and is currently loss making. It will likely be pulled at some point.<br /><br />Let's say Konect want to do everything possible to make the route viable.<br /><br />They bring in brand new buses with: USB charging points; they have free WiFi; seats with tables (probably not with what buses are needed for the route); individual lighting; an increased service in peak periods; a fare refund if the bus is more than 15 minutes late; aircon and heating; next stop announcements.<br /><br />Would this then increase patronage by 300% and make it profitable. If it was all about making the bus more attractive, all operators on all routes would have high spec buses. <br /><br />Unfortunately for some routes, no matter what you do, it wouldn't be viable without funding. At the end of the day, councils need to see why they gave funding in the first place, and by cutting it, there will be no benefits for the community.<br /><br />If all funding was cut, Sanders would likely cut half of their services. I'm not saying because they are a bad operator, just that no matter what an operator does, they cannot make them viable.ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-13090446588985198832018-06-29T20:50:17.343+01:002018-06-29T20:50:17.343+01:00I disagree. If I'm using my car to go to Norwi...I disagree. If I'm using my car to go to Norwich, I want to do that. I don't want to stop half way, wait 10 minutes for a bus, and the same on the way out - even if it was free. Unsure why Park and Ride has come into this, as that hasn't been cut. <br /><br />How it is currently, many people wouldn't use the bus, even if it was free, over using their car. Yet, charging people extra to use their cars would then make some people more inclined to use the bus.<br /><br />Tell me - apart from cost, and not having to drive (many people enjoy driving) what benefits are there of using a bus for a car user?ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-54333214560783627532018-06-29T20:46:00.268+01:002018-06-29T20:46:00.268+01:00And here we have the chicken/egg syndrome. Car use...And here we have the chicken/egg syndrome. Car users won't leave their cars at home as buses aren't attractive enough, and buses can't afford to make themselves attractive as car users won't leave their cars at home. <br /><br />One thing that can be done is Park & Ride made more attractive for single drivers. Sure they are great value if you are a family, but not if it's just you. Rather than charging people more to park in town, charge them far less to park outside town and bus in. but the service must match requirement and not stop too early.Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-69182361951287439172018-06-29T20:32:55.399+01:002018-06-29T20:32:55.399+01:00I'm not criticising you, I'm just putting ...I'm not criticising you, I'm just putting my point across that nothing stops another operator taking over a route which one operator ceases. If they don't, there must be a good reason for it.<br /><br />Selective reading? (Exactly what you said to me)<br /><br />It comes down to funding. Let's have buses with USB, Wi-Fi, and tables. What else? Well, as a car user, I have enough data that I can use 4G freely; I can charge my phone in the car; and it's much quicker.<br /><br />If I can't say funding, then it would be to charge a congestion charge. This would be great for routes leading to Norwich, but then, could you really introduce a congestion charge for, let's say, Worlingham to Barnby? Many routes which are at risk dont serve cities, so this wouldn't work for these types of route.<br /><br />I don't have a solution, but I believe it's less about making the bus more attractive, and more about making driving less attractive.<br /><br />ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-65865792703908192892018-06-29T20:25:12.921+01:002018-06-29T20:25:12.921+01:00You keep on criticising me but have yet to come up...You keep on criticising me but have yet to come up with any ideas of your own. As for Borderbus they don't want to expand any further as that would mean finding new premises. It's a shame but that's just how it is.<br /><br />Would you like to reveal yourself, btw rather than hiding behind your mask? I don't see anything you have to hide.Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-1029759718848412492018-06-29T20:22:43.205+01:002018-06-29T20:22:43.205+01:00Come now Smurfy my boy, that's twice in one da...Come now Smurfy my boy, that's twice in one day we have agreed! I assume it was the Cambrisge/Peterborough route you're talking about? Nice route that. <br /><br />I didn't need to persuade him - he saw it was an excellent timetable, and at the first opportunity implemented it. If the poor bloke wasn't working with at least one hand behind his back I give you my word that FEC would be in a much better state. They will lose Chris at their peril.Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-11971409565087828022018-06-29T19:59:14.250+01:002018-06-29T19:59:14.250+01:00Without being presumptuous, many people which use ...Without being presumptuous, many people which use buses which are in small villages are pensioners. Each one using their bus pass, and the operator getting less than £1 back per journey. Fill a Solo up and that would just about cover costs.<br /><br />What I see is this:<br /><br />You slate companies like Konect (and anglian RIP) for cutting services which are unviable. I.e. some in Beccles and surrounding areas. You say that not enough was done to protect the service. However, nothing is stopping another operator from taking over. You talk highly of border bus. If these services had potential, why haven't operators such as borderbus come in and started the same route the day anglian/Konect pulled out? More than likely as they don't see them as viable.<br /><br />All I can say is that bus operators are businesses, not charities. Tesco wouldn't keep stocking a product if only a few people bought it, would they? Just like any business, they are soley focussed on the bottom line.ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-64986074358149320572018-06-29T19:58:46.801+01:002018-06-29T19:58:46.801+01:00Two local examples Steve. One Op (Stagecoach) want...Two local examples Steve. One Op (Stagecoach) wanted to turn an interurban service two hourly, but thanks to an articulate public, they worked together to find a solution, which SC has now developed to integrate the service into the successful busway. First Essex (a sense of inevitability permeates this one) ploughed ahead regardless, only to then be persuaded by articulate locals - who would not be shut up - of the inevitability that what they'd done made no sense whatsoever, and wouldn't achieve their own objective; and reverted the changes (after the bureaucratic wait) admittedly once they had been backed into a corner when they couldn't answer any of the points raised at a packed public meeting.<br /><br />If I could legislate sense I would. But I don't think anyone else has found a way, either.<br /><br />How did you persuade Mr. Speed by the way - a big stick? smurfukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812247601237248526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-64152023841227231242018-06-29T19:48:24.794+01:002018-06-29T19:48:24.794+01:00Therefore, if the answer doesn't lay at fundin...Therefore, if the answer doesn't lay at funding, stop mentioning "when I was younger...20 years ago....When I moved to this village..." as the reason you had a bus service there was due to funding.<br /><br />If funding was not available 10/20 years ago, many bus routes would have stopped many years before they did.ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-25530770546905825052018-06-29T19:42:28.741+01:002018-06-29T19:42:28.741+01:00I suspect the whole licensing system should be rev...I suspect the whole licensing system should be reviewed. It's cumbersome and bureaucratic and I'm not sure it is looking after the passenger/public interest as it should.<br /><br />Once the operator has made the decision to axe a route it's almost too late. I agree that communities should get involved more but I don't think bureaucracy is the answer. Operators and parishes/community groups need to talk to each other, beforehand. Again it comes down to competent, confident management. Which often seems to be sadly lacking. Councils and Commissioners are not the solution, often they're part of the problem. Important as the rules are, and yes THE RULES MATTER (note to posters), the OpCos seem to think if they've kept the right side of authority they've done their job. No they aren't, that's 10% of it.<br /><br />And as some posters on here seem so keen to demonstrate, the inability to communicate (a two way process involving both patience and courtesy) seems to be a major part of the problem.smurfukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812247601237248526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-57330393850066912832018-06-29T19:30:37.072+01:002018-06-29T19:30:37.072+01:00So how can te current system be improved so operat...So how can te current system be improved so operators have more incentive to encourage passenger growth? What can Councils do instead of simply cutting services? What other avenues could they explore? It's ok just to shrug and say it's all about funding, but how do we stop it being all about funding?Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-47775632943407184392018-06-29T19:24:08.287+01:002018-06-29T19:24:08.287+01:00It's all down to funding. When funding is cut/...It's all down to funding. When funding is cut/ removed so are the routes. <br /><br />Remember earlier this year when subsidies were going to be cut, and it affected many services, especially Sanders on the North Norfolk coast?<br /><br />Remember 10 years ago? Wi-Fi and USB charging points had never been heared of. What incentives did they have back then? Step buses and bench seats on 25 year old buses? ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-31228183024906581172018-06-29T19:14:54.772+01:002018-06-29T19:14:54.772+01:00Selective reading?
"Yes it might discourage...Selective reading? <br /><br />"Yes it might discourage new routes but what we have still got needs protecting first."<br /><br />How about you enlighten us with your thoughts on how things can be improved? I'm sure everyone is waited with bated breath!Steve Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06852377706742868978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-67541062099934838462018-06-29T19:00:23.478+01:002018-06-29T19:00:23.478+01:00"If, for example 6 months notice had to be gi..."If, for example 6 months notice had to be given to cut a route rather than 8 weeks, it would give more opportunity for communities to get together and ensure patronage went up."<br /><br />Well to start with, that would stop operators from starting new routes, as it would be too risky if it wasn't to work.<br /><br />And 8 weeks, 6 months, 2 years...it's putting off the inevitable. Giving people 6 months to work together and increase patronage...great, but when the operator agrees to keep the route, it will go back to square 1. The reason it was to be axed in the first place.ANONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009339986340441625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2425346921966365551.post-38976595150107145612018-06-29T18:46:56.016+01:002018-06-29T18:46:56.016+01:00In short; kill yourself.In short; kill yourself.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207349362694444289noreply@blogger.com