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Wednesday 24 October 2018

Comment: When Will They Learn?

How often do you get unwanted phone calls asking you about PPI, offering you a phone or Sky upgrade, or a myriad of other things. How often do you get stopped in the street by market researchers wanting to know your opinion on everything from deodorant to the price of onions. Bloody annoying, but obviously gets results or they wouldn't do it. Now how many times have you been rung up, or stopped in the street, and asked about your local bus service, and what would encourage you to use it more/at all? No, me neither.

I saw a Twitter poll over the weekend that was asking what was the most important aspect of bus travel. The options were reliability, punctuality, price of fares or leather seats/WiFi. Well hang on just a moment, but the most important aspect of a bus service is actually having a bus in the first place. You can have an interior to rival Buckingham Palace but if it doesn't run where you want, when you want it's as good as useless. This is the lesson that the vast majority of operators still have to learn. In this day and age, when people have a choice, you simply can't sit back, set up a route and expect the public to come to you. You've got to be different, think outside the box - take the service to them rather than assume they'll come to the service.

So how DO you attract new custom to fill those empty seats? Bus operators seem to think in completely different ways to most businesses. If I'm going to open, say, a fish and chip shop, then where do I want to open it. Right next door to an already successful chippy might not be the best place. You might get a few folks try you out of interest, but on the whole people will stay with what they are familiar with - it's the nature of the beast. Yet how many operators set up a route in direct competition to another operator assuming that everyone will immediately jump ship, well bus, and desert the operator that has been serving them for years. It seldom works. Unless the new operator undercuts your fares by 60% and you don't match them, of course, thus becoming a laughing stock and driving your operation over a cliff.

Why do they do that? Why are the only seemingly viable new routes those already with bus services when we have lost in excess of 3,500 bus routes in the last 8 years. The population is growing, not shrinking. The answer, as alluded to above is because no one bothers to ask the public where and when they want a bus service. Every year we get operators proudly boasting customer satisfaction figures as published by Passenger Focus, who survey thousands of bus passengers to get their opinion on everything from the standard of the seat to if the driver's tie was straight. But hang on a sec - these folk are ALREADY ON THE BUS! They have already decided that the bus is the most convenient way for them to get around - hooray! So this annual love in doesn't do anything to fill the empty seats, it just says that 93% of the 6 passengers on that double decker were happy. Line up those bonuses!

Why aren't Passenger Focus stopping thousands of people on the street, calling up random people, in other words making a bloody nuisance of themselves finding out why people DON'T get the bus, and what would entice them on. I can guarantee "because the bus doesn't have WiFi" wouldn't enter the equation because neither has their car you're trying to get them out of. It's damn useful once you're on the bus, but that's not going to be a reason people switch modes. Having a bus go where they want, when they want, at a cost effective price will, but how do you know where these people are and where they want to go if no one asks them?

The successful operators are the ones who listen to their market, realise that some people get held up at work, or like to stay to socialise, so making the last bus at 1730 is of no use to them. Chances ae the cost of the taxi home is more than their weekly bus ticket so may as well use the car. It's pointless encouraging passengers to use a half hourly double decker service to get into town if you then expect them to use an hourly single decker service on the way home as the deckers are tied up with school work. If you have two operators on a route passing a holiday camp which one is going to attract the custom - the one making the effort to go into the camp, or the one forcing the unhappy campers to cross one of the busiest roads in the county in order to reach the bus stop?  Are passengers more likely to catch the bus to the train station if the buses connect with the trains or if they miss each other by 5 mins? As for DRT it's utterly useless if you have to rely on it. Impossible for commuting, and not knowing if you'll get a journey when you want it is an awful way of operating. Pot luck doesn't work in transport.

It's no use bleating, as one operator does frequently, about the small remuneration on Concessionary passes when you charge fare paying passengers the earth to make up the shortfall without making an effort to encourage more on. When did you last get a flyer through your letterbox with a 50% off voucher for a bus journey? How many other industries do you see having exclusive offers for "new customers"? Not buses that's forsure.

So that's the rant - so what are the solutions. Well there are many, but I'm blowed if I'm going to give them away here just for operators to nick them and use them as if they had thought the idea up. That's already happened more than once. I don't get paid for this blog so my ideas don't come free as well, but believe me they would bring results if, and only if the majority of operators change their way of thinking. If they don't then the bus industry outside major towns and cities is dead in the water, and will probably never resurface. I am available for consultation. Nothing to lose as more and more buses are running around with fewer and fewer passengers on them and businesses are going to fall.

But I will give you this for free - if customers are already using your business regularly then they are happy. It's not them you have to ask what's important, but those people NOT using your business, as it's those people who will increase your income. If you are an operator using Twitter it's unlikely any of your followers are non bus users! Numerous other industries recognise that, hence the annoying texts and phone calls, so why not the transport industry? Lethargy, pure lethargy.

82 comments:

  1. Andrew Kleissner24 October 2018 at 15:25

    Lots of good points there. Reminds me of the doctor's surgery which (allegedly) asked folk if they were happy with its opening hours - but only asked those who could make it there rather than those who took themselves off to A&E because they weren't offering Saturday or evening sessions.

    One slight quibble: you say, "If customers are already using your business regularly then they are happy". I'd want to add a caveat to that: "or they have no alternative" - i.e. they are prepared to get to work half an hour too early because they need to be there, don't have a car nor a local friend who can give them a lift. So they use the bus, but not happily!

    I think there is a real problem with evening services in many places. People want to be able to go to the cinema or restaurants or visit friends and generally be flexible. But there are never going to be enough passengers in most places to run a 10 or 15-minute service, yet an hourly one is off-putting. I have no idea how to square that particular circle! (It might just be possible if there is just one cinema or theatre in town, and you time the services according to the finishing times of the shows - might be difficult arranging the driver rosters though, if the buses have to run at 10.15 on Monday, 9.45 on Tuesday, 10.50 on Wednesday etc.!)

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    1. Well then perhaps the solution would be for the local bus company to work with the local theatre/cinema to ensure that finishing times are always the same, and perhaps include some joint promotions/offers etc to sweeten the deal? A further step might be to use a DRT system to include travel booked with tickets, but that might also highlight its questionable viability.

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    2. Yes, and yes again. Why are bus operators and local businesses so reluctant to work with each other for mutual benefit? It has always mystified me.

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    3. Most people using buses now are not using them from choice. It is just they have no other choice as if they did they would not be using them. It is not a good position for bus companies to be in as there customer base is slowly disappearing

      Running huge double decker's infrequently is not very sensible nor are timetables where huge gaps appear as the bus has gone off to do a school trip

      It is very difficult to find anything positive to say about buses much as I would like to. How many buses integrate their service with the rail services ? Most train stations are almost unserved by buses where they do they seem to think one bus a day will do then you have the out of town shopping centres and business Parks again pretty much unserved by buses. The same goes for new residential estates. In fact there was an article on that

      If bus companies don't provide a decent service and most don't people are not going to use the bus and as for marketing an advertising forget that they simple do not do it

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    4. Found the link

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45956792

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  2. Working with local businesses is key to this. Offering deals and running services which connect with opening times are what's needed.

    One local example for me was the Centrebus service 200 between Luton and Whipsnade Zoo, during the school holidays 7 days a week. Two journeys in each direction one arriving just after opening time and an hour after and one departing just before closing time and an hour before. Then a discount on zoo tickets when showing your ticket. Achieved full loadings throughout the summer on a 12m bus, people who would have otherwise clogged up the roads of Central Bedfordshire.

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    1. However this is much different to Steve's idea of running buses until 10pm to villages which can't meet operating costs at peak times. Your example shows a bus using a visitor attraction, and only operating when the demand nessitates it. Steve's idea doesn't look at that. For example, his idea would see a 2am bus going through his village to serve the many party goers...

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    2. Take a day off from being a twerp, please.

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    3. And I am by no means biased on Centrebus, but they put up leaflet stands in Hopsitals, libraries and other public places prior to the start of the service.

      Other independents such as a more local Grant Palmer have abolished advertising, in place a smart two tone red livery. They've also introduced self advertising on the rear of all buses with information on their services. Their website is also well laid out and I'll leave a link here http://www.grantpalmer.com

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  3. I'd just like to point out that this poll came from Steve's precious Borderbus (if it was a different company I'm sure they would have been named).

    1) Free tickets or discounts through flyers for new passengers? How will this be monitored? It works elsewhere as you have to sign up online. What about technophobe Mandy who doesn't have access to the internet? Perhaps just hand the flyer to the driver? I use the bus, but my siblings and parents who don't can just give me their vouchers. Much harder to control than a 10% Amazon discount which needs your address and bank details.

    2) Bus companies shouldn't start new routes and compete - they should create new routes and try and regain what has previously been lost. Sorry Steve, but I think on this one you have your rose tinted glasses on. I think you look back 10 years and want it to go back to how it was then. Dream on. If I were to start a bus company with one route, would I compete with a route which has a 15 minute frequency which needs deckers; or start a new route which was pulled 5 years as it was operating at a loss, and even an Optare Solo would be too big for peak periods. - what you need to understand is: these villages are getting an ever growing older population. This with free bus passes which pay less than ever...why would a company in their right mind start this route again?

    3) Bus passenger focus. So Steve, we shouldn't have a survey on bus satisfaction? What about supermarkets? What about hotels? What about reviews in general? Of course reviews and surveys are needed. Without them, businesses wouldn't know what areas they need to improve the most.

    4) Free WiFi doesn't get people on a bus? Obviously not the majority, however believe what you would like to, it has played a huge role over the last 5 years. For example: Konect route 8 got WiFi. Somebody posted about it on Twitter. The post got over 40 likes. People were saying how they were going to switch from the X1. Comments saying how they may desire to leave the bike/ car at home and go to college by bus. Perhaps people of your geberation wont appreciate it Steve, but if you were less narrow minded, it is sonethibg others like. People in their 20s wouldn't want to listen to classical music, but if it was played out loud on the bus, 85 year old Trevor might be inclined to get the bus more.

    5) Later buses? If buses are only just commercially viable during the day, how are they going to be viable for departures at 8/9/10pm?

    Konectbus Norwich - Watton average:
    5:15 - 31 passengers
    5:45 - 29 passengers
    6:15 - 17 passengers
    7:10 - 9 passengers.

    Why would they then make the buses later? How they are now, all of the duties start with a driver taking a bus out in the morning, and the driver taking a bus home in the evening. Even if the times were extended to 8/9pm, the duties would need to change to incorporate a later start for at least 2 drivers (somehow as these drivers are starting later, they will need to find 2 drivers to cover the morning peak also). But how would this be viable? Even though the 7:10pm service has been around for 2 years, it's still very quiet. Why would an 8/9/10pm bus be any different?

    6) Make buses later and time them with the cinema?! Sorry, this has to be a joke! "Odeon can you make all of your films finish at 7:45 so passengers can get to the bus for 8pm?". I can just now visualise 100 buses leaving Castle Meadow bang on 8pm going to every village in Norfolk and Suffolk taking these people home...!

    If these are a taste of your good ideas Steve, I think somebody would have a screw lose to pay for your other ideas!

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    1. Exactly. And what would you call a new customer? Somebody who has categorically never been on a First bus? Somebody who hasn't been on one for 5 years? Before you know it, there will be a dull page of terms and conditions to put them off!

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    2. His "precious" border bus also decided to copy route x2 with their 146. Strange how he's never brought that up as a bad choice before and that they should have chosen a new route....

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    3. I went to the cinema on Monday and there was literally just a handful of us in there. I don't see how that will boost patronage. Oh wait a minute!! Let's get all restaurants to make sure customers have their bills ready at 7:45 so they can all catch the 8pm bus ahahahahaha

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    4. With how big headed Steve is with his "brilliant ideas", why doesn't he start a bus company? It sounds like he'd become a millionaire with a service serving every town and village across East Anglia.

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    5. Oh look, that cunt steve hasn't replied to this. You've proved him right. Good job.

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  4. You've hit the nail on the head. I'm a multi national operator. There's a route which has 700 people use the route in each direction. On the other hand, there a village which used to have a bus service which was government funded, but the funding was cut. This only drew in 50 passengers each way. Am I going to compete and try and get some of these 700 passengers, or am I going to put all of my marketing, time and effort into a new route which would at the very best break even?

    In instance 1, I would only need to get 7% of the passengers from that service onto mine to make it more viable than option 2. This would easily be done with minimal work.

    What you tend to forget Steve, is what operators are in the business for. MONEY! They aren't a charity, and they want to make as much money as possible, with using as little resources as possible.

    Let's say that an operator went with option 2 and it was an amazing success. Another operator would then come in to try and make money from it. What a waste if time it's now been for the first operator, as half of the profits they should have made are now going to the competitor. Unless the government come in with a ban on allowing more than 1 operator to run the same route, then this is how it will always be from now on.

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    1. If you don't meet your customers neds they will vote with their feet and stop using your services and that is exactly what is happening. The management of nearly all bus companies is in my view abysmal. They don't understand their customer and don't understand their market and in general do not have a clue which is why most bus companies are in near terminal decline

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    2. Thank you. For a second I thought I must be living in a parallel universe and everything was just fine and dandy in this one with nothing needing to change!

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  5. I love it how yoy say Steve "I don't get paid for this blog so my ideas don't come free as well, but believe me they would bring results if, and only if the majority of operators change their way of thinking. If they don't then the bus industry outside major towns and cities is dead in the water, and will probably never resurface." Yet half of your posts seem to be campaigning for better rural services. If operators aren't going to take you up on your paid consultation, then, as you say, it will be dead in the water.

    If I was campaigning for better buses in rural areas, and I had given up work with no intention to be a manager or owner of a bus company, I'd say what I thought was needed. Who cares who tales your ideas? Surely if this is going to help your campaign and get more buses to villages, then this can only be a good thing?!

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    1. That's because he only thinks about himself. Does he really think he's going to wake up to emails from bus operators asking for a "consultation"? #Deluded

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  6. Loving all these people telling me I'm talking rubbish yet don't come up with their own ideas to improve the situation or have the decency to put a name to their comments. Thank Christ you lot aren't in charge or there would be nothing left of the industry. Ever thought there were only 6 people in the cinema BECAUSE there wasn't any transport home.

    Am I in this for me? Yes I bloody well am. If U can help others in the process all well and good, but it's my hobby, my life, my blog. You tell to start my own company - trust I'd love to - you start your own blog, constantly come up with things to post about and I'll act like a coward behind anonymity and slag you off. Lol it wouldn't surprise me if the two anons were the same person replying to themselves.

    There are 4 operators alluded to in my post. I don't name any of them. I praise by name but not necessarily criticise. That is common practice and I can't afford a lawyer. If anyone wants to reach conclusions and name operators and can afford the libel costs if they're wrong that's up to them.

    To whichever Anon is using Konect as a owing example of how to run a bus company I suggest you follow their Twitter feed. Daily cancellations and breakdowns. Any company that has to hire in open toppers on standby because their own fleet is so knackered they can't get enough buses fit for service is not one I look to for inspiration. Lol and you think I'm biased towards Borderbus!

    I'm fully open to criticism, but I prefer it to come from those who name themselves, as a few have done privately. Then I can explain or elaborate on things that may have been misunderstood. But if you can't put a name to your comments then thanks for reading, but go forth and multiply, and when you get there go forth and multiply some more, in fact keep on going forth and multiplying until you get back here. Then go forth and multiply once more. Only don't do it by bus as it will only have broken down, or been cut by the council.

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  7. Did I ever say Konect were good? It's an example I can base on fact. It would be a fact if they didn't have a breakdown once in a year, and it would be fact if they had 50,000 breakdowns in a year. And it was AN open topper. SINGULAR. FACT. Was is used? No. FACT.

    Yes indeed they have had quite a few breakdowns and some cancellations. I've seen 3 broken down first buses this week as well as a Sanders bus. Did you see those mentioned on social media? No. Would you have known about Konect's breakdowns and cancellations without them tweeting? Thought not.

    It's a double edge sword. Don't say anything, and the people which wanted to use the service will be frustrated that nothing was said. Say something, and thousands of people can see. 99% aren't even using the service. However, as they say, be proactive and not reactive. I.e. Sanders and first replying to tweets after the event saying why the bus didn't turn up.

    Now go fourth and multiply.

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    1. I believe I said the open topper was hired in on stand by, not that it was used. FACT. And yes I would know. No one tweeted that there were 20 vors and 12 needing patching up that day. I talk to people and people talk to me. 99% of what they say remains confidential. That's why they talk to me.

      Sorry - who are you again?

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    2. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    3. Sorry, had to delete that one as you incorrectly named someone. Suggest before accusing anyone of giving me information you check your own facts. Somewhat sad you named them, but can't name yourself.

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    4. Im not going to repeat what I posted, but just for the record, I only gave a first name, and there are 4 people with that name which work there. I will be happy to tell you my name is Phil. Cant really get much from that.

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  8. One of my ideas?

    One would be to not have adverts on buses.

    Yes it's easy money, however they look very unattractive.

    Being a bus operator is great, as you have your own medium to advertise on. Sides of buses...backs of buses... let us know about different routes...let us know about prices...tell us why the bus is better than the car...let us know why it's so convenient...tell us why it's so cost effective...tell us about the advantages of the bus.....ect.

    Again, Konect were great at this. Julian didn't allow advertising on any of his buses, inside or out, however most of the single deckers along with the 3/6/8 buses all had self advertising. It's free, so why not use the space?

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    1. Yes, and under Julian the company grew, just as Lynx are now. No coincidence.

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    2. I think you need to do a piece in Lynx.

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    3. Yes I keep meaning to and I will. I keep putting it off as it means going to KL on the X1 E400.s, which Ioathe! But since it looks as though they're not being replaced anytime soon I'll try and get over there.

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  9. I bet their team can't wait to see you . One of their team cancelled your villages bus service .

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    1. Which team and what village? The council cancelled the bus that served my village, and I've been here over 5 years....

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  10. There needs to be fresh idea but most bus companies are stuck in the 1950's business model which simply does not work today

    It needs a joint approach with local shops & business and local councils, the government bus companies

    Having good frequent town services using smaller buses would encourage more people to travel to town by bus. Often through shops will call for free parking but that causes more problems than it solves. High streets were not built for the car and simply cannot provide enough parking so making them free would just increase demand for the limited parking and may displace shoppers as commuters and shop workers etc would take up the parking space

    Shops also need to change their opening hours. Most still keep to the 1950;'s 9am to 5pm hours but that not how people live nowadays. Most people are at work then. Bus companies also need to recognise people don't work 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday. Shops also need to provide a delivery service so you could go into the high street shops and but what you want and all the items could be delivered the next day in one delivery

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    1. Regarding breakdowns, I'm reliably informed that there is now huge pressure from the Go-Ahead head office to reduce engineering costs and therefore repairs will be done just sufficient to get the bus back on the road rather than replacing a major component. Unfortunately this means that breakdowns will continue to be at far too high a level. This is compounded by a lack of investment in the fleets. Hedingham used to buy two or three brand new buses a year so that ordinary bus services would be run by modern vehicles leaving the older ones for low mileage school use. Since the takeover, Hedingham and Chambers have had no new vehicles.

      Unfortunately the huge losses incurred by Go-Ahead East Anglia means the situation isn't going to change any time soon.

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    2. Makes perfect sense. To the acccountants. Doesn't surprise me in the least and the evidence backs it up.

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  11. I must be living on a different planet.

    Traveling about over the summer, I've seen bus services doing everything we say they should be doing, all over the Shires from the far east to the far west. Far from being lost, bus services being maintained and improved. But if we are looking for a beauty parade, as so often is the case, then we will be disappointed. Normal people aren't. I'm not talking about London or the Mets either. But it doesn't alter the fact there is no magic money tree to do everything we want, just because it looks good in our eyes. Most of the time we are robbing Peter to pay Paul. That's life, and if it isn't then count yourself darned lucky (or retired!)

    I've lost count of the number of times I've seen an operator who is getting the passengers on board and keeping a route where others have failed, criticised robustly for the age or appearance of its fleet. S0d the looks, it's not a beauty competition to the passengers, even if it is to us spectators sitting at our keyboards. And I'll tell you what loses passengers or doesn't attract them: if the bus doesn't turn up, however good the advertising or jazzy the paint job. Just try walking home a few times at the end of an evening out, or at the end (or beginning) of your daily commute. I've managed with an infrequent service, and it's harder with an unreliable one.

    We all do it, of course: look at our local village or station and then extrapolate to everywhere else. No, we need to open our eyes for a change. And stop being so darned hypercritical when operators try things that don't work out. If they don't try, we won't know. Yes they've actually tried many of these suggestions. They didn't work out in a number of cases. So what now, brains? We've got well beyond the discussion so far.

    I actually disagree with the lot of you. I think the bus operators are trying very hard, and to please everybody with what they want. In some cases the problem is that actually they are trying TOO hard, and stretching their resources to and beyond breaking point. All operators are making savings in support services, but to those people that have never heard of the concept, apparently, I envy your charmed life. Most of us normal people don't have a sugar daddy, we have to cut back and change our plans, constantly. It's not the end of the world. (Though it often wouldn't win any beauty competition either).

    I don't worry too much for all the nice-to-haves, they're not going to make or break the bus business; but above everything else passengers need a service they can rely on. The same as any business, or your friends for that matter. Without that missing ingredient everything else may end up a waste of time. And that's why, more often than we care to admit, less can be more. Frankly I have rather more confidence in an operator that looks after its existing passengers to attract new business, than one forever chasing butterflies with the elusive passengers it hasn't got. Bad news for us bloggers perhaps, but we can't afford to be precious.

    All business is struggling (well except perhaps the banks and the property speculators, but I don't know anyone who goes out for a night of pleasure in either). Not just the buses. It'd be lovely to offer deals and co-ordinate everything perfectly, but nobody can afford the cost and we certainly aren't going to pick up the bill (or take a pay cut) to pay for it.

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    1. You do live on a different planet, my friend. You live in Essex!!!

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    2. I am not sure what planet you are on. Bus companies have a totally unrealistic view of things. Yes bus companies have to make a margin but passengers don't ow bus companies a living. They have to provide services that are of use to people and they have to market their services and understand the market. The present approach of bus companies just drives passengers away

      Where exactly are these services being improved? You might find the odd instance but in general it is just cutting services

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    3. Here's an offer you can't refuse then Steve, I'd swop you FEC for the First Essex mess any day! Though happily even the latter's reliability is improving, a bit! Though the biggest help would be if there were less nutters on ALL of our roads.

      There are fairly regular reports on here of services withdrawn or cut back, but dig a bit deeper and as far as I can tell most of them are "saved" in some form to (often better) meet the need. Often tired services getting a refresh, and why not? And that is the point. Unless we say that all change is bad. Buses are to meet a need, not a dream. And when passengers make a suggestion, they are often acted upon. It's not utopia, far from it, but what on earth is?

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    4. Tell that to the passengers of the 581 feeder service which summarily ended today. Kids being picked up by Lamberts. Fare paying adults erm, erm,...

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    5. Only the kids for Bungay are being collected and they have to pay which leaves the college pax also without a service.

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  12. ... and logistics. How do we manage on a bus with the family grocery shop; getting our kids, and their equipment, to all the constant round of things they do out of school, and around town and into the countryside; and visiting our relatives and those of our partners who often don't live locally, sometimes in an emergency? What would a trip to the doctors or the hospital involve when we're ill? Services often aren't local any more. We have, for better or for worse, developed a car based and "just in time" society where we all feel we have too much to do and too little time available. (Except, sometimes, us retired, perhaps). Of course, if there weren't so many nutters rushing about on the roads, then everything (including the buses) would be better. But if everything had to be located on a bus route, then a lot of businesses, and a lot of people, would be out of a job. That all might not matter to us; but it would to those affected.

    I don't think my experience since retirement is unusual either: with home entertainment and home delivery, I hardly ever use the car now either. It's a better quality of life. But the car needs some use to keep serviceable. If I want to take the dog, carry a 56kg bag of compost, or get some waste to the recycling, or am carrying some furniture, it's not easy on the bus. Can I lawfully take oils or paints on the bus? And I can't leave the dog on the bus as a mobile kennel (unfair to the dog, perhaps, rather than the bus). And I do enjoy the odd meal out, drink or event in the countryside. No, I have to go to town where the bus goes? I'll go where I want, thank you. I think we gave up being told what to do 50 years ago. And I can't join my friends after a night out, because I've a bus to catch, and if I'm out too late then I have to walk home from the bus stop in the dark when the streetlamps are off. My neighbour is a keen golfer: I'd like to see them take their golfing equipment on the bus, or several; but I won't suggest it to them; we are still just about on speaking terms at the moment. The same goes for many sports, and they are not a minority interest. I wonder if going to town outside the Mets, is becoming a minority interest, though.

    Where the bus is competitive and practical, it is successful. But there are no panaceas; and what might work in one case doesn't in another where the circumstances are different. Arriva have recently found that with frequent urban minibuses.

    Where the bus is successful it's where the public subsidy is available and the use of the car is restricted. So people are forced and enticed on to the buses. Who, amongst the local politicians has the will (or the suicidal tendencies), and where is the electoral majority to vote for it, and to pay, or afford, the higher taxes?

    It'd be interesting to see how many journeys the elderly would make if their concession cards were wiped out tomorrow. They at least have the time on their hands. And probably the money too. The rest of us don't.

    I once had this fantasy that free Club-paid-for buses could get PoW revellers and City supporters home: but with all their licensing, security and public health requirements they just don't make the profits; and the taxi industry supports more livelihoods than the buses. Colchester FC have just stopped theirs. We can't just turn the clock back however much it would suit us. (Though if someone has a way, I'd like some more summer please for the next 6 months).

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    1. We seemed to manage before. Quite often on a Monday you'd see me getting 2 buses to school carrying my school bag, sports bag complete with hockey stick AND a cello! We used to cope perfectly well yet still used the family car for those journeys the bus couldn't accommodate. We coped without thinking about it.

      Now everyone wants everything done for them without them having to lift a finger in return. Different types of people call for different types of service, and that's what I'm saying and most are arguing with, that mindsets need to change if buses are going to survive. If everyone's happy with what they've got that's fine - I'll shut up, spare myself the abuse and watch everything go down the plug hole. If, however, it's not perfect then instead of saying what can't be done say what CAN be done!

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    2. What an absolutely pathetic reply, Steve. "We used to cope perfectly well".

      We are in a new age where we don't want to "cope", we want to have something which is convenient.

      All supermarkets offer home delivery. This is perfect for people with a busy life, or indeed individuals which don't want to go out to do a good shop. Imagine how well your supermarket would do if you owned one Steve and you say "they coped before...."

      What about general online shopping? Remember waiting up to 1 week for an item? Now many shops do next day delivery, with Argos and Amazon even doing same day delivery (the latter even does food shopping for you from Morrisons).

      You state "Now everyone wants everything done for them without them having to lift a finger in return...that mindsets need to change if buses are going to survive". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, Steve...but really...? Our whole lifestyle has changed dramatically over the last 10-20 years, and you want it to go back to the old ways JUST so we can have more buses?!?!? What a dream world you like in (I personally wouldn't call it a dream, as I would hate to go back to the old days of not having the choice of ordering online or convenience in general...)

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    3. Indeed anon. "Mindsets need to change". What do you mean by this Steve? Surely if we aren't changing our mindset, then that means we are happy, surely? I'm happy ordering things online. It saves me the bus fare into the city; it saves me going into packed shops, only to find the product is out of stock so I need to find a substitute; I have to wait for the bus back home; carry the product on the bus and home. Or I order online and get my product delivered to my front door. You say about when you were at school and had to cope. This is the era before the internet. Indeed students still get the bus to school with their bag, PE kit and a musical instrument if they play one, but going on the bus to go shopping is in decline. Why would one go to the high street where 50% of shops are now closed down, when they can and are happy to do it online?

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    4. Sigh. Read again and work out whose mindsets need to change. Plus I never said we had to go back in time. I have repeatedly used the terms 'move on', 'progress', 'increase income'. But hey, you read what you want to read then hide behind anonymity to criticise it.

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    5. Read what you put...." If everyone's happy with what they've got that's fine - I'll shut up, spare myself the abuse and watch everything go down the plug hole". I've quoted what you've said. If you want to ignore the majority of opinions, then don't ask for them.

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    6. Well? Are you happy with what you've got? Or would you like to see operators (and local authorities) do more to encourage more fare paying passengers, thus generating more income and generating growth? There seems to be a misconception that I'm criticising passengers here. I'm not!

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  13. Dear Steve,

    I am a manager at Sanders Coaches, and I know that the following extract in your post was regarding us: "It's no use bleating, as one operator does frequently, about the small remuneration on Concessionary passes when you charge fare paying passengers the earth to make up the shortfall without making an effort to encourage more on".

    We operate from towns and villages with a high percentage of individuals with free bus passes. Before the free passes came in, all adults paid an adult fare. When the free bus passes came in, it wasn't a huge deal, as we received less income per journey; however, the number of journeys increased. Now, we are lucky to get 30 pence to the pound. Let's take your fish and chip shop example. Let's say you open a successful fish and chip shop, selling to mainly the older generation, as you've opened it in a town which a older demographic. Now let's say the government are going to give everybody over 60 years old free fish and chips. Instead of getting the £5 from them which you used to, the government will now give you £1.50. Your revenue has now dropped 66%. If this happens to you, and your livelihood was in jeopardy, would you remain silent?

    What I don't understand, Steve, is that you often make a point about routes being cut. I haven't seen many routes cut (which don't have a competitor) without good cause. Usually this is due to funding cuts. We, at Sanders Coaches, make sure our voice is heard. Did you see the cuts they were proposing earlier this year? If we kept quiet with the other operators in Norfolk, it's likely that these cuts would have taken place. If this were to happen, many of out routes would have been substantially stripped back, or removed completely. I'm sure you would have had something to say about the loss in service, yet, as a bus operator, we should keep quiet? That seems quite contradictory to what you are trying to achieve.

    Additionally, I am trying to understand how we "charge the earth" to our paying customers? Our fares are extremely competitive with all other operators in Norfolk. On the routes which are served by another operator, our fares are either the same or less. The fares we charge from Norwich to places like Cromer or Sherringham are similar to what other operators charge for the same distance. With respect to this, I am unsure why we have been singled out.

    We have all of our timetables in local shops and tourist attractions; we provide timely connections with trains; we offer an extremely comprehensive network with evening buses to many towns and villages which other towns and villages do not have; and we offer a reliable service.

    Kind regards,

    Sanders Coaches Manager

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    1. Many thanks for replying. No, I wasn't singling you out, I could name plenty of other operators who (quite rightly) complain about the low return on free passes. I have been suggesting for some time now that Concessionary Passes carry an annual fee, the revenue from which is ring fenced by law to subsidise loss making bus services. Perhaps Mr Sanders might like to publicise that idea. I was certainly impressed at the stance he took over the proposed cuts.

      But what are you doing to encourage growth and more fare payers using your services? You don't need me to tell you that empty seats don't make money so how do Sanders go about filling them?

      I would just say one thing about the free passes. No one I know who has one is making the same amount or fewer journeys as they made before the pass. They are making more. Therefore if Mrs Coggins used to get the bus to town once a week paying £5, but now goes in 3 times a week and you get £1.50 each time then overall the loss isn't as bad, although if you compare loading figures to revenue it will. You have to transport the seats anyway, and something is better than nothing.

      Once again thanks for replying, and you are the reason I keep anonymous comments open.

      Kind regards

      Steve

      PS. Until there is a multi operator ticket where fare payers can jump from bus to bus, operator to operator as pass holders can, I'll consider them charged the earth! Nothing personal - I've been banging on about that since I moved to the area!

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  14. It's not all the bus operators fault, though to blame them for everything is easy. I know, I've tried it often enough too. I hope we'd learned that we can't just copy America - the mantra of our politicians from the 1960s (and still today) - we haven't the land area for a start, or the resources.

    But, for worse not better, we have developed a car-based society. It has to change. At least in the Mets, they are trying (even if half-heartedly, sometimes).

    Modern Town Planning too is starting to recognise that we need to build communities which provide for the lot, not just housing estates. How the Country that give birth to Ebenezer Howard and the New Towns ever forgot that is a mystery? But then our politics always was a mystery to me, and still is.

    In the modern jargon that covers everything in fog, it's called "sustainable development" and public transport is at the heart of it. Or locally not, apparently. Three "New Towns" proposed by our local Councils were thrown out at Inquiry, because they came forward with no thought to public transport, just throwing cars on to the already overloaded local roads! How the hell did that happen? We have to develop places to live where people don't need a car, except on the occasions when they can hire one. Public Transport which meets all day to day traveling needs which aren't met by foot power. Beyond Steve's wildest dreams. And the rest of the network will benefit too.
    It's a reality the Cambridgeshire Mayor will have to face from next April. Has he woken up yet?

    The car industry has recognised it. They're planning for a future where the private car as we know it is redundant.

    When will the politicians (and the public) in East Anglia (and Essex) begin to catch up? Fortunately the new residents (coming from elsewhere) are - perhaps another reason why we hate them so much?

    So it's back to the drawing board. Let's hope (even without much optimism) they come up with something better next time. They haven't long . . .

    The same with multi-operator ticketing. It'll happen if there is the political will . . . Is it even on their Agenda, locally?

    Are the bus companies ready? They've just held a Young Managers conference where it was a major plank of debate. I actually have more confidence in the operators than I do in the local politicians and their cohorts, though I admit that isn't saying much. To be fair to First Essex they tried to develop a Met network, though they never got the hang of delivering it day to day, evidently. Go-Ahead too are making a (somewhat patchy, perhaps) attempt live up to their name in this respect. And the smaller operators are, in my experience, bringing forth their fare share of innovation, as well as competence too.

    Yes there is bad news; but let's be patient and wait-and-see. Do we have the complete picture? When we see a red sky, no-one else can ever convince us it's blue. Things take time, unfortunately. The magic wand is a fantasy too.

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  15. And just in case anyone thinks it all has nothing to do with our buses . . .

    Across the region, in Cambridge, Southend, Basildon, Chelmsford, Colchester, Ipswich, Norwich . . . what have thirty years of and on-going road improvements done for congestion, apart from made it worse, constantly, to the extent that our towns are jammed nearly all day? Not just all the waste of time and resources, but life is intolerable. Smaller towns too, try Braintree, Witham or Dereham for example, or indeed any of the multiples of them that splatter the Eastern Counties; and coastal villages whose character, what attracts people to them in the first place, are threatened by the car. And where do the cars come from, if not the villages too?

    We need to get people out of the car and on to the bus and new modes of shared transport especially for people and journeys where foot and cycle aren't an option. We don't have an alternative. Forget the romanticism or the mindsets. We had this debate 50 years ago. And solved it by denying it. Burying our heads in the sand. Well it's time to take our heads out of the sand and get out of our bunkers. The buck has landed at the feet of our so-called civic leaders, and this time they can't just kick it into touch. Though I'm yet to be convinced they've any clue. Operators and passengers have a role, of course; they need to be convinced, but they can't do it on their own. Someone else has to step up to the plate. Who?

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    1. No idea, but the best of british to them. They might want to disable certain comment avenues first!!#

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    2. The main problem, Smurf, will be whoever comes up with a feasible and workable plan will have to win favour with politicians. That, by the nature of the beast will mean the plan itself will be politicised, which in turn means some will oppose it simply because it's not their party's idea, which will leave the plan in tatters before it's begun.

      This is why I believe that the industry needs to get together and come up with a plan that gets opposition and public support, leaving the sitting government no choice but to adopt it or lose votes. That way if the opposition then came to power they couldn't abandon the plan, having supported it in the first place. In theory.

      Tell you something - dictatorships may not be desirable but heck they are simpler and things get done quicker. Shame most of the things are negative!

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  16. Unfortunately we live in a country that survives on fat cat gread . Nationalisation is needed again . Now were has all the money gone from the privatisation?

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    1. Ho, ho. Some of us actually want the civil servants who have made such a mess of the train network to mess up the local buses too???

      First's "fat cat" shareholders have had no dividends for 5 years, and a share price that's tanked. That's not where the money has gone then! I can't see HM Treasury (or its taxpayers) being that patient.

      So how would nationalisation, of what, help exactly? (The passengers, rather than the shareholders and management, preferably).

      Or is it that our narrow blinkered vision got us into this mess, so let's have more of it!!!

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  17. Andrew Kleissner28 October 2018 at 14:05

    Thinking of finance, I have a question. Some years ago, when we were living in Ipswich, our route was taken off because it wasn't profitable (the curse of the concessionary bus pass again!) My wife asked one of the Directors if it wasn't possible to cross-subsidise unprofitable routes with funds from those that did make a profit, but was told this wasn't legal and that each route must pay its way.

    Now I accept that a company like IB mustn't be a drain on the Council, also that the company's overheads (as opposed to the marginals costs of running a service such as fuel or a driver's wages) have to supported by services as a whole. I realise too that some bus routes are directly subsidised by councils as they fulfil a social need. But was our informant correct in their assertion?

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    1. The accountants may know better; but this is an old chestnut. I do not believe there is a direct ban.

      It is the implications which follow from the provisions (which affect all businesses) not to act anti-competitively - restrict or distort competition - (which in economic theory damage the market and hence the interests of consumers to obtain the best goods and services for the best price). One can readily understand the principle, which has good intentions. But like all good intentions . . . they also pave the road to hell.

      The trouble of course, as with all law, is how do you determine the intention to damage competition? And whether, in practice, there is any damage e.g on a single route, as opposed to in theory. It has to be inferred. Us lawyers can, and do, argue until the cows come home (and afterwards). So it becomes a matter of risk-aversion.

      A Competition Commission inquiry is an expensive business (as with everything involving lawyers and accountants), especially as the costs have to be met by the protaganists, including the "innocent" party. So it becomes a question of whether there is a likely complainant (a competitor, usually) and your size to absorb the costs. But even the big boys (Staegcoach, for instance) have on occasion decided that sensible consolidation just isn't worth it for that reason. And the Competition have their teeth into the transport industry, which doesn't have, for instance, the political power of some industries. But even the supermarkets (think Sainsbury/Asda) have their problems.

      I don't have a solution. Except if we were all perhaps less legalistic when it suits us and our regulators less civil-service minded; but that really is a Smurf pipe-dream!

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    2. Of course a complainant doesn't have to want to run the service, just make trouble (or put a competitor "in it's place"). Playing the system is the national hobby!

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    3. It's a good question, Andrew, and unless different rules apply to council run services I can't believe it's true, as tax would be paid on the overall profits of the company, not each individual route. However, I will endeavour to find out.

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    4. My understanding is that in general companies can cross subsidies route but they may not do so in order to be anti competatived

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    5. That saves me saying it! So were First anywhere near your route that IB cut? I have asked a Commercial Director on your behalf who basically said as Anon above, but how easy it is to prove is a different question. The analogy he used was Tesco selling butter at cost price or less to undercut Spa across the road.

      However how that law applies if you are the sitting tenant on the route, so to speak, and someone else comes in poaching your passengers. Are you allowed to pump more money into that route to win them back? Added to that most routes don't make an instant profit so need to be subsidised in the beginning anyway. 'A moot area', as he put it.

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    6. Andrew Kleissner29 October 2018 at 07:14

      No, there was no competition, IB just wanted to cut costs.

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    7. There would be no issue at all to cross subsidise a route to a level to keep the existing service going. There could an issue if it were subsidise to a level to say double the frequency and where it was competing with another service over a significant part of the route

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  18. Andrew Kleissner28 October 2018 at 19:39

    Thank you.

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  19. Wasting my breath again; but no price cuts aren't normally anti-competitive. The Commission aren't stupid. Consumers wouldn't stand for it, and neither their politicians (much as they hate the foreigners, Amazon and Uber, or even Murdoch etc.) Competition Law actually grew out of, originally, the outlawing of the practice of resale price maintenance (manufacturers/suppliers setting the consumer price for their products). Undercutting was how the supermarkets created their business!

    The equivalent for buses is different companies agreeing a common fare structure. It is frowned upon, very strongly. Which incidentally brings us back to why, generally, the local transport authority (read County Council) has to negotiate the multi-operator ticketing arrangements, or a sensible common fare structure for shared routes. They aren't the operator! (But how do you share revenue, fairly; aren't the small operators always going to lose out on almost any formula, usually operating in the less populous areas? Another reason why there are always exceptions, as for certain "key", usually higher priced or the longest, routes too).

    But the reality is always soooooo bo-oorring!

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    1. ... which is also why most multi-ticketing arrangements are long-standing; relics of an era where everything was rather simpler and Commercial Directors didn't rule the roost with such a iron fist!

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  20. ... and how lawyers earn their keep devising clever ways to get round the rules. Cat and mouse. Hence why life is always so complex.

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  21. OK. I'll throw it into the pot at this stage. I know that no-one is brave enough to grasp the nettle. It stings, a lot.

    I've long had a worry about the Competition Commission. It's not their job to run a business. Their good intentions are vitally necessary for a good margin business, otherwise monopolists would rule the roost. But in a low-margin business like modern buses, do they risk just hastening the decline?

    Of course good margin businesses become poor margin ones, and less frequently perhaps vice versa. See the High Street traditional Department Stores and Amazon for contrasting fortunes, both general retailers. And privatised buses were once a good margin, as the bureaucracy and ineffeciencies of the nationalised entity were stripped out, with those at the head of the queue doing best; see Stagecoach. First, by the way, have lower margins than most; acquiring a portfolio of anything they could lay their hands on, and then boasting (as they still do) of the number of their services, as if they couldn't make things worse. Now they're left with no alternative. As they assure their investors they are realising value, with the constant plaintive chorus of "When?" in reply.

    Both Steve and Anon are right: the business isn't attracting passengers, too often putting them off. But, sadly, that is the nature of the business, nationwide. Those who use the buses, for the most part, don't have any alternative. The Commercial Directors will admit it, if they're honest, and that they run the business accordingly. It's not a nice prospect for the passengers, and perhaps even less so for the staff. Hence why recruitment, and even more so staff retention, is in a continual state of crisis. They are hardly likely to attract decent management, either. Which all, with congestion and lack of investment (back to poor margins), are the main reason why they are so unattractive and have such limited options to do anything about it.

    That is why I'm trying to look at a wider picture, and saying they need external help. And the uncomfortable truth is that we have to make the car both less necessary and less attractive. More than that, actually penalise the use of the car. Literally drive (force if you like) people on to the buses. And yes, the other side of the coin is that the bus operators need to raise their game, considerably. It isn't as though they haven't tried, but I think the lack of success shows that trying is not enough on its own. Even worse than that, it won't happen on its own. (Demonstrated by the successful operators, almost exclusively where the use of the car IS restricted). At the moment, whether it is their intention or not (and I believe it's not) they come across as treating their passengers like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them bullsh1t. It has to stop.

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    1. Trouble is, Smurf, you can't make the car less attractive until you have the alternatives in place. I saw a comment about one of Greater Anglia's water fountains the other day, praising it and saying 'you can't expect change unless you provide the facilities for change'. She's dead right. Tou won't get people out their cars unless the alternatives are there, but no one is prepared to finance the transitional period, which could be many years. Certainly won't be overnight.

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  23. And whilst I'm being blunt, often treating their staff like disposable nappies. All in all it is not an attractive business. Frankly is it any wonder if some drivers take their employer for a ride rather than the passengers?

    Though I will readily acknowledge that many smaller operators (without the bureaucracy), despite struggling commercially, are good to both their passengers and staff. They wouldn't survive otherwise!

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    1. In a lot of cases it is the goodwill of the drivers that keep operations going. They certainly frequently blunt my pen.

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    2. THese are more brainstorming idea and would need refinement

      At present here is no real support for bus services unlike all other forms of transport. Retailers for example are quite hat to fund car parking but will not fund bus services so this inequality needs to be addressed. Local councils are unwilling to support bus services or even bus stations but will fund car parks again that needs to be addressed. Bus companies are also failing and failing to invest or market their services. Real time bus information systems are patchy and frequently do not work reliable often defaulting to just showing timetable information without even telling you

      In my view buses need to be given equality with other services and standards and quality significantly improved. Outside of the large urban areas bus companies should move away from large double decker’s to midi size single decker’s running much more frequently on town services. Bus should have quality seating and interiors and provide next stop information. Publicity material should be available o the buses and real time bus information available from mobile phones

      Current impediment to using buses are :-
      1) Lack of timetable and publicity information
      2) Lack of real time bus information
      3) Inadequate frequencies of buses and buses starting to late and finishing to early
      4) Lack of smart ticketing and acceptance of credit and debit cards
      5) Ability to pre book your seat
      6) Getting shopping home

      To address the above issues councils and bus companies need to work together to provide comprehensive real time information including to phones
      Provision of quality bus stations with seating. Waiting room toilets and timetable information
      Local High Streets to provide a delivery service so you can do your shopping and leave it at the shops and it will be delivered to you in one delivery . This would only be for local deliveries . This could be an extra revenue stream for bus companies delivery parcels in the evening

      To fund this Government to provide funding for bus services. Council to at least match funding for buses to that they spend on cars and cycling
      A tax on the provision of parking places both public and private companies maybe say £12 a year per parking place

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    3. As you say needs a lot of work but good stuff. The trouble with tech is we're all in the hands of the (unresponsive) suppliers. But there may be some support from First, who may be saying their margins are at last improving from the roll out of real time and contactless payment. We might find out something at the next half-yearly results around mid-November (after they stopped quarterly reporting presumably due to not being able to cope with all the bad news!) The trouble I fear is that the increased custom may be wiped out with increasing unreliability! Stagecoach have already introduced it, and Arriva now say contactless payment is "coming" locally.

      So for an immediate measure how about increased and consistent enforcement (e.g. using powers available to non-commissioned staff) of existing parking and waiting restrictions against the vehicles which obstruct bus movements? Buses have on-board CCTV, so why can't CCTV evidence be accepted by the Tribunals to support the fines? And longer term introduce higher tier fines for bus obstruction and ring fence the fines as a supplement to (not substitute for) public transport support? Does it meet my criteria to discourage (mis)use of the car and support use of the bus? Anything else?

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    4. Stricter enforcement against lane hogging, driving too close, and defective vehicles for instance; and ring fence a proportion of speeding fines, and mandatory minimum three-strikes-and-you're-out minimum year long bans? Should we start to treat private (and commercial, lorries and vans are offenders too) driving as a privilege and not a right? As a car driver I'd hate it but . . .

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    5. But, and I'm sorry for repeating myself, the alternatives to the car have to be in place BEFORE we starr stripping licences etc. You can't force people to change if there's nothing to change to!

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    6. Parking can be an issue for buses to get around so I would suggest that on bus routes the Default is Parking is not allowed and will only be Permitted where it is Specifically allowed. This would reverse the current situation of Parking being allowed unless specifically restricted. Blue Badge holders would not be exempt from this new rule. All to often Blue badge holders cause obstruction and park dangerously In general it should also apply to Loading and Unloading but clearly there would have to be some exemptions from that. I don't think there is much can be done about that

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  24. I get that point Steve; only too well.

    Most drivers suffer a wilful blindness that sees no connection between the(ir) bad driving and congestion, nor how congestion wastes resources and prevents bus companies from expanding their networks. They think that money grows on trees too!

    So let's just continue putting more traffic on the roads. We don't have to do anything. Just moan, endlessly.

    How did you end up in that field? Did the road suddenly move out of your way?

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    1. I genuinely thought I was further up the road than I was - it was pitch black - and instead of a gentle right hander came a hairpin left I thought I.d already been round! I actually ran over the sign warning of a sharp bend that had been previously knocked over.....

      Been round that bend countless times since and still can't believe I did it!

      As for the topic, fuel duty should be abolished for buses, reducing their costs, and gradually raised for cars over the next 5 years with the extra revenue ring fenced by law to go into alternative and integrated public transport. But obviously it won't happen. The Treasury hasn't come to terms with the loss of tobacco duty with so.many people quitting. It knows that if people quit their cars too it will lose billions.

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  25. I totally agree Steve and my point exactly, they need to think what would get people out of their cars and on the buses. Something which seems to be a problem around here.

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