One day the world will end. Trouble is no one knows when. It could be tomorrow, it could be billions of years away. The same applies to Ipswich Park & Ride. It was officially announced on Saturday that it will close. However no date was set for closure. A date has been banded about whch is quite surprising at first glance. Everyone knows that the busiest time for P&Rs is the run up to Christmas so of course the suggested date for closure is October. Actually since a Council is involved it's not really that surprising. Ipswich Borough Council see maintaining the P&R sites as too expensive and so want to clog up an already clogged up town even more! As soon as I know more I'll publish it.
So with IBC announcing the closure of the P&R it makes the news Clive broke on Ipswich Bus Blog on Friday all the more baffling. Ipswich Buses have bought out the bus operations of Carters Coaches and no one has the faintest idea why. It was announced to Ipswich Buses staff on Saturday and the driver I was talking to today (really nice chap) said no one had the slightest inkling it was going on. He also said it was more surprising as apparently IB want to convert to a single deck only fleet and bar the VDL Evolution Carters have a fleet of deckers! So what is going on there? Why do IB suddenly want a route to Essex?
I have recently seen (but not published) documents suggesting IB are in financial dire straits, which makes the buy out of another operator even more difficult to fathom. So despite my double pneumonia (I'm a man with a cold) I have a theory. I stress this is only the workings of my clogged up brain and there is no evidence to support it but........
In the same bracket as one day the world will end is one day IB will be sold. It's inevitible. I've recently had debates with the good and the great in the local bus world as to who would want to buy IB. First probably wouldn't be allowed by the monopolies people. Go-Ahead have seriously fallen out of love wiith this area thank God. I know Arriva, despite having Colchester Transport, are not interested in going any further north which leaves Stagecoach, whose nearest operations to Ipswich ar Cambridge and Kings Lynn. So could it be a pre-requisite of an IB buy out - no one has mentioned Rotala - that a link to Essex is established so IB's area isn't as restricted? I'm told people from Clacton have been sniffing around IB, no idea which operator but it would make sense if the IB operatig area could link up with an already existing area.
It will be fascinating to see how things pan out over the year. Obviously as soon as I hear of anything else I'll publish it.
A single-deck only fleet? That'll be fun on the X5s, 15s and 6s, where they need the double deck capacity. IB tried this already in the late 1990s, and it didn't work then.
ReplyDeleteArriva have truly ballsed up Colchester over the years, so I can't imagine people will be happy if they got it. Ditto Go-Ahead with the mess they've made of Anglian. First, to their credit have turned things around in Ipswich, but like you say, the competition people wouldn't allow it. So yeah, Rotala or Stagecoach should IB be sold, I guess.
ReplyDeleteI could see the Stagecoach angle if and only if they were still in for the rail franchise but saying that they have not moved down from KL yet. First could be biding their time waiting to pounce.
ReplyDeleteUnless First are putting up the mother of all smokescreens they assure me it is highly unlikely the monopolies commission would let them buy IB. I'm not conversant enough on business law to know what happens should First be the only interested party. You can expect rumours and counter rumours to be doing great mileage over the next few months though!
DeleteIB also have a number of school contracts that require double decks.just a question though.How many buses do Carters actually own and not lease?
ReplyDeletePass! I will endeavour to find out. (no pun - seriously)
DeleteIsn't it Suffolk CC rather than Ipswich BC cuts which are responsible for this?
ReplyDeletewell thats ballsd up my visits to Ipswich. I always use the P&R!!!
ReplyDeleteHmm. Do First buy anything these days? They're still trying to digest the hash of a meal they cooked up more than a decade ago.
ReplyDeleteBut once the dominoes start to fall . . . I've discussed elsewhere the plight of First in the East, judged by apparent profitability (or rather lack of it). Essex keep themselves afloat by taking costs out of the business, it seems (Braintree and reducing duplicate depots in Colchester), which can't carry on for ever. Well, especially not when they reinvest the proceeds in even greater lossmaking routes. Their Essex and Suffolk operations seem to be areas whose idea of growth is local authority contracts . . . So when Ipswich Buses do end up in play, and I still incline to the view it's a medium term play (but could be completely wrong), I think it's part of a much larger jigsaw. Watchee, watchee, catchee monkey, as they say.
Whatever the Competition Commission want, they can't make a profitable business. And without profits, there is no business.
I don't think FEC are out of the woods yet. For all the bright paint job, it's what's on the inside that matters. And the lack of profits start to cast a light on the dark corners. Corporately First adhere to the management principles of the Three Monkeys, so when things fall they happen fast.
I wouldn't completely rule out some of the local below the radar players either; some of them are doing rather nicely building up from their private contract business.
And don't forget IBC. Someone might make them an offer they can't refuse, but my feeling is they'll sell for a purpose: when they have something better to spend the money on. If they do it properly you look to spend money to earn money (on which I suspect their track record isn't good, but you try to learn). And Ipswich is in such a state of flux at the moment, that no-one really knows what is going to happen.
DeleteWith Stagecoach pulling out of the rail franchise bid with Abellio, it could actually be a possibility that the group preparing to expand/acquire bus operations in the area. They've already got Norfolk Green, and having looked up the finances on a vast majority of bus operators in the region, it wouldn't surprise me to see Stagecoach swooping in on both IB and Anglian - and Stagecoach have a habit of being able to turn a business around.
ReplyDeleteBack on point: the sensible thing to me would be if someone took on car park maintenance (IBC? though local authorities are a dialogue of the deaf, so it may have been ruled out) then reduce the P&R to peak hours only, with the site served at Martlesham by First's 63, 64 and 65 stage buses and at London road by IBs Pinewood services (as Tesco already is). That always appeared to me a better prospect, given that all the buses get caught in the same jams. Why does it take to October though, close it early and SCC could give IBC a dowry?
ReplyDeleteIt's something we all have to get used to, living within our means and making the best use of our resources. When did we forget it?
Complete left field idea ( probably from a lack of coffee) could the purchase of Carters be to plug the lost income from the P&R?
ReplyDeleteAm I right in thinking when IB lost the P&R in 2008 is when the 5 / 7 / 11 / 15 went from 15 mins to 20 mins etc?
So its nothing to do with the excessively high amount of money that carters owe for maintenance to IBl then :)
ReplyDeleteOooooh now there's a thought - a boring one if it is but are Carters making enough for the opperations to be worth taking over. Just means the maintenance comes in house now and IB foot the bll anyway.
DeleteSeems like a very plausible explanation. I always thought that IB would end up buying out Carters anyway given their close relationship. But I'm surprised that you are so certain that the P&Rs closing (though I'm sure you're correct I can't see any official confirmation online, anywhere?). I'm also confused because a report in the EADT a few weeks ago seemed to suggest that there was hope of saving the P&R!
DeleteI doubt it will be formally announced to the public until a date has been set. This maybe one of the rare times the staff affected are told before the public. It was one of those members of staff who told me.
DeleteIBC have been trying to sell off Ipswich Buses for some time, they came very close a few years ago but couldn't agree final details, the relationship between the two has never been the best out there. The purchase of Carters has a logic geographically and Ipswich have a history of running rural & interurban services, if it wasn't IB at this time with these circumstances it probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
ReplyDeleteGo-Ahead are the most likely buyer, they were the preferred option last time, and they will undoubtedly do a better job than they have elsewhere. The problem Go-Ahead have in East Anglia is that they have never really understood rural operations but they are very good at running urban & busy interurban work. Ipswich Buses are much more like what they are comfortable at. First have competition issues, Arriva have never been entirely comfortable in the area with remote smallish town operations, it is small & a long way from anything Stagecoach, it is the right size for Rotala (though depends on the competition) & RATP have shown an interest in smaller work but otherwise it is a bit small for the big global players but a bit big for the smaller groups to pick up.
Morning Dwarfer. My man with high up Go-Ahead contacts says it's rxtremely unlikely to be Go-Ahead as last he heard they wanted shot of the area. I still think nothing will be finalised until the rail franchise winner is announced although since Stagecoach pulled out of the rail franchise and Go-Ahead want out......
DeleteDon't you just love random hypothesisii!!
I would say that ipswich buses have vitually been given carters bus business as they would have been losing money ie bus repairs maintainance costs..but as said previous a sellout of network colchester to ipswich buses would be a good fit
ReplyDeleteNot really a good fit in my view. It could be a good fit for Stephensons as could Ipswich buses
DeleteI just hope that Ipswich buses can be given the time to find a partner who shares their genuine enthusiasm for customer service (and not just the lip service that everyone pays to it these days). If it's someone who is both competitive and practiced in the art of peaceful co-existence that'd be the golden triangle. Not for the enthusiasts who look for fireworks and excitement, but I'm thinking of the much more important passengers!
ReplyDeleteIpswich buses made a reasonable profit for the financial year. I suspect it came from the taking over of the P&R services. If they loose them it could turn to a loss particularly with IBS also axing other contract service. The full accounts can be found on the companies house web site
ReplyDeleteI'd hardly call a profit of £6k on turnover of £10m reasonable.
DeleteHi Steve news is coming to me me that soames coaches at Otley is to close in July
ReplyDeleteMany more small bus and coach operators will close in time the seeds have been sown
ReplyDeletereally? just up the road from me. that would be desperately sad if that true. big part of my childhood they were.:(
ReplyDeleteThanks David for the news - I'll see what I can find out and let you all know.
DeleteHi Steve I understand that Tony soames is to retire other family members are not keen to what to take it over he try to sell it last year with out success some off the drivers are coming over to Galloway
ReplyDeleteOn Galloway news two new vanhools tx16 are on order for March being exchange are vanhools 196 and197 soon to be put up for sale are Mercedes-Benz coaches 289.293 and 294been told there may be two more mcvs coming home
ReplyDeleteReported on the Star's website this morning - not closure, but not a ringing endorsement of the economic case. Simple fact is that people need a reason to use it and not be attracted by cheap town centre parking which will do no favours for congestion.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/ipswich_park_and_ride_set_for_relaunch_to_save_service_1_4432824
So I was right. It's obvious there is not going to be a dedicated service to the P&R sites no matter how you like to dress it. However not even SCC are dumb enough not to realise that people will abandon going into Ipswich altogether in preference of out of town shopping, and commuters will smply park in Tesco all day and get the 66 or 13 into Town.
DeleteAnd there, my friends, we have the future. This will no doubt be ridiculed bt let's see where we are in a year's time. I can't see what can be done with Copdock other than extend the 13, but I predict a mini transport hub at Martlesham. The 66 becomes circular going direct to Martlesham via Woodbridge Rd and back via Martlesham Heath with a 66A or something going the other way round. At the same time the 63/4/5 will not run in and out of Ipswich but terminate at the Martlesham hub.
That way you save on PVR on the Aldeburgh routes, you don't need dedicated P&R buses yet there is still a regular fast service from Martlesham to Ipswich via Woodbridge Rd and people can still park to catch the bus. Simples.
Part of the problem in my opinion as to why Carters Services and indeed many other bus services are not well used is because they are just not marketed! Unless people go on to Suffolkonboard or Carters website, there is no other knowledge that the services exist. Why do bus operators think it is ok to run a business without marketing and selling their services?? Any other business survive if they didn't market themselves or what they offer?? There is many ways this could happen with the Colchester routes, with them connecting the Constable Country etc, There is a market there for people who do not want to use unreliable trains etc, why isn't this capitalised??
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more Aaron. Too many operators think people will simply turn up if they start a service and it just doesn't happen anymore these days. That was proved with Anglian's 164 that was launched with barely a whimper, and by the time people realised it was a half decent service and started using it the decision had already been taken to axe it.
DeleteI've said ever since I started this blog that people need a reason to catch the bus. Less people have no choice but to catch the bus than did 20 years ago. So operators need to pull their finger out and not take passengers for granted.
I don't agree you can keep on just blaming the operators. It takes two to tango. I think you perhaps look at it just from the point of the concessions, but everyone can't be subsidised: there isn't the money to go round. In this area particularly, many people with families simply can't afford the bus, and need to combine their journeys and do several things together, not just take a leisurely ride for as long as it takes.
DeleteI'd suggest that the destinations (whether workplaces or commercial leisure outlets) need to do more. They are the places where people need or want to go. They need to, voluntarily or by compulsion by the planning process, adopt the Green Travel Plan Methodology whereby they commit to a monitored target of, say, getting 10% of visitors to travel by bus and aid it by promotion, helping operators to design services accordingly and financial incentives for passengers. And think about trying to serve their local communities too, in the process. Nobody does it, apart from the few remaining attempts by out of town supermarkets which are to be commended. (10% is pretty good by the way, at the moment it must be significantly less than 1% outside town centres). People will ask: what's in it for me? Done properly it can be of mutual benefit, and start to change habits. But it is hard and requires time and real commitment. Suffolk is a tourist hotspot. All business needs to step up to the plate. They won't all do the same or all of it, of course. But at the moment they can't be bothered and can't see the point, either. Motoring is a right, not a privilege. Perhaps one or two just might try to prove me wrong?
The days of generous local authority subsidies for everything are over, nobody will pay the tax. It's not the Government's responsibility, nor the councils nor the operators, it has to be the responsibility of all of us. That's the most difficult bit of all. But just possibly what a better world it might be.
Stop looking backwards to what was because none of us can turn the clock back however much we want to, and start looking forwards to what might be by exploiting what we have.
As someone who can't afford to run a car believe me driving is NOT a right. Neither is having passengers turn up to catch your bus. If you want something in this life you have to work at it. And part of that is letting people know what you're all about. You don't see shops opening with no signage do you. They make sure people know what they are selling. Why should bus operators be any different? How many 93 timetables are in Capel St Mary village shops? About as many 164 timetables in Wickham Market shops I imagine.
DeleteI agree stores should be encouraged to join the green initiative but to be honest as long as customers come through the doors the accountants won't care how they got there. I suggest the initiative has to come from operators to approach businesses - from supermarkets to theatres and bingo halls to jointly give incentives for people to use the bus. Of course the services have to be in place first for people to use. No point getting the bus into town to the theatre if there's nothing to get home on. It's a bit chicken and egg as no one can afford to give time for anything to catch on these days.
Sorry, but I just think that approach has been tried for the last 50 years. And that just doing the same thing time and time again, and expecting a different result, is insanity. You have to do what people want, not the other way around.
DeleteWhen I used the 94 last year there did seem to be timetables at the principal stops, though I have to confess I didn't get off at each stop to inspect them! But why do we all have to wait for the Councils every time? "Because it's their property/job"!!
It's the chicken that lays the egg. And that's demand. A bus operator doesn't generate that, just perhaps a destination does.
"The Constable Connection"
ReplyDeleteI lived along Carters routes (pre-Carters)for a number of years; and apart from peak and schools traffic it always struggled for passengers. The Constable connection had very little effect, I suspect because there is not enough to do in Dedham Vale. There is plenty of residential development, but it's suburban in character with little social housing (and even less with Right to Buy). So several car households predominate, and if you have a car you use it. The same is true of the route to Colchester. It always surprised me that they so preach green living, and fail to practice it, but perhaps that is academics for you (being a popular area with Essex Uni academics). Often I think greenwash is just a pseudonym for the protection of house prices. And I see no support for the new development which would support bus services, as over so much of East Anglia. They've tried commuter links to Manningtree and bus-cycle. Nothing has taken off. Cambs experience is similar. The Colchester Park and Ride which I'm not sure has really taken off for the casual user, may not help.
DeleteThere is perhaps some evidence emerging from the west of the region, around Cambridge; and in my now county, Essex, that where there is enough new development bus use can be encouraged, not least I suspect where exiles from London are a bit more used to using public transport. But they need an incentive. May be, travel packs and subsidised season tickets, which the County Council have been insisting upon for a good few years, might be helping, marginally, together with Developer supported services. In a few cases the commercial service is able to continue where the subsidy runs out, but it's patchy. First seem currently to be trying to swamp the new development along the Chelmsford-Witham corridor with daytime buses, but they'll have to manage more than the off-peak half-dozen passengers it's attracting so far. The attractions of town centre shopping and eating out seem to have faded. Can't moan, it's a view I share.
I think we haven't seen the full potential of custom on Carters (or indeed many other) routes because they are just not advertised or made to be attractive, and never have been! The public nowadays want something more, and rightly so. Bus companies are so frighteninly behind the times its unreal, especially compared to most other industries! take Carters Colchester routes, a mismatch of numbers like 93c etc that mean nothing, different routes at odd times around schools journeys, run by old buses, some still in other operators colours and looking very unattractive. It all needs to be brought up to modern standards, they need to appeal to what the public actually want, as a simple comparison look how cafes have changed from old greasy spoons to modern, smart coffee shops with made to make people feel welcome, this is how bus companies need to think. Take Trent Barton for instance, how they market their services, even routes which serve rural isolated areas like the Transpeak are still marketed As a brand, Using simple timetabling with smart, attractive (but not always new) buses, this pays off, it makes people want to use them. At the extreme is transdev, the new 36 route buses is something every operator need to aspire to, that's how companies need to be thinking, it needs to be brought into the modern times. Another thing is routing, operators still seem to think that the focal point of every town is the centre, this is constantly proving not to be the case, how many more customers could Carters attract if their routes were to serve Copdock Tesco and all the other shops? Not everyone want to go into town centres these days. An example of poor marketing is my local bus route, I love at present in Bury St Edmunds, on the large, modern Moreton Hall Estate. There is an hourly bus route by Mulleys which, if I wasn't an enthusiast, I would know nothing about, there's hardly no timetables, no details on fares, routes etc, just a bus stop flag at many stops, why isn't it marketed? Leaflet drops, posters, social media? Instead it's served by vehicles which are not even branded with the company name most of the time, one bus I saw the other day that didn't have a working destination display, and driven by a driver wearing a hoody! Hardly making people want to jump on is it? That's if they know about it in the first place!!
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell Carters seemed to pretty well maintain the remainder of the formerly contracted Suffolk CC service, which continued the former First "commercial" (well nominally) service. And that's the problem, there needs to be someone telling them what to do. May be similar in BSE.
DeleteIn the Essex variant, someone makes a suggestion so they give in and try it, don't make any money as no-one knows about it, withdraw it, and then wait for the County Council to come to the rescue and reinstate it. It is the line of least resistance. No good shouting at them, if that's how they want to play it you have to play the same game too.
As an aside, Ipswich Buses seems to have made a success of the Shotley routes so maybe they can do the same with the 92/93/94 routes!
ReplyDeleteExactly, and I know everyone is sick of me banging on about Borderbus but clean, presentable buses, friendly drivers (no hoodies) and above all reliability is seeing them buck the trend and expanding where others are falling by the wayside. And marketing. I've travelled with the MD's wife using one of their buses to deliver timetables to Norwich Bus Station as they were running low. They didn't just expect people to turn up. The buses always have timetables available and it is amazing how many are taken. It CAN be done if the effort is put in.
ReplyDeleteAs for Bury I suggest you get onto Suffolk on board and tell them about the lack of timetables and information as timetables at bus stops are their responsibility.
I suspect we'd all agree that bus service operators aren't, with very few notable exceptions, the brightest sparks. And often broke financially too. Not a combination to inspire innovation. Route 36 can do it because they serve the population numbers. We don't.
DeleteSomeone has to shake this business up. Which is why I keep banging on about the destinations. They know about marketing, their livelihood depends on it. If only they could accept that their responsibility includes the bus services too. Climate change is the responsibility of all of us, and the biggest contribution we can all make is getting out of our cars. Buses need a driver, so too do bus companies. And that means going to places and at times passengers want to and in an environment that appeals to them; and who knows about all that better than the destinations? They make the money too, and need to give some of it back. It's good for business.
Border bus is exactly the example of what I mean, doesn't necessarily mean strong branding like Trent Barton or buses like Transdevs 36, but what they have a smart clean modern buses with a good, clear and easy to remember timetable and most importantly they market their services to people, they actively try to attract the public to them. Same with Lynxbus! Look at the area they both serve, rural villages, wealthy affluent areas, small to medium towns, no different to this area. What really annoys me about Carters is that they base their whole operation on School Services and all the other routes fit round them, which makes for odd number routes, odd times and often sharing a bus with a hoard of kids, again not making the service attractive. Buses need to be at a regular time throughout the day. Also, I cannot stress enough why hasn't there been a link to Copdock Tesco? Surely every other service could bypass washbrook and travel from Capel to Copdock? There has got to be more people that want to get there than what is going to get on at Washbrook? Do the villagers in Capel and Bergholt not want to go shopping??
ReplyDeleteIt's the same with most operators in Suffolk though, they run a route with the only timetable being on Suffolkonboard (which I am sure most people don't even know about) and they expect the public to flock to them, and moan when they don't! Could you imagine a cafe, or shop, or someone running a business from home selling stuff not marketing what they offer? There would be no business very quickly!
DeleteIts risk aversion isn't it? With school traffic and the County sponsored services you have a guaranteed income. On the commercial services you have to earn it, so they get the leftovers.
DeleteWe'd all like it to be the other way around, but although Lynx and Borderbus can do it, and let's face it that's because of confident leadership but equally because they are choosers: new, rather than legacy, and small operations (= less risk and less habit). As ever, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. We all just get stuck in a rut, sometimes.
Let's face it if we were a manager at IB, First, Go-Ahead, or a small operator in mid-Suffolk, how confident would we be? We'd need something to inspire confidence, and what would that be? I think an identifiable "new market" helps, which is why new development can help, but that's still often in short supply.
Just a thought on Copdock Tesco. Given the TC condition that buses mustn't run more than 1 minute early or 8 minutes late, how do you deal with the traffic jams at the Interchange, which seem capable of happening at any time of day? And smaller operators seem to be more often under the cosh.
DeleteDon't know if that's the reason but if so I couldn't blame Carters. I thought the TC were barmy when they first consulted on it. And still do. But I suppose their political masters, who never use buses, were impressed.
Seriously Steve? The current MD is an Stagecoach employee, who formally lives in Kent and hasn't relocated here, and he doesn't even work 5 days a week. Go Ahead is a probable interested party, but Stagecoach is hoping to buy the company for a steal.
ReplyDeleteThe IB chairman is an ex-MP politically charging the management structure. The MD has told drivers to accept lesser amounts than full fares just to tweak the turnover lower. They want to increase passenger numbers but lower revenue, so they can revert when they own it.
First destroyed P&R but IB is equally running it into the ground even before the SCC announcement. Taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing P&R losses especially when the car park rarely gets more than a quarter full. IB doesn't make that much from the P&R contract (in terms of overall turnover) so they might as well do away with it and use the buses on town routes. The school kids using the service to Suffolk ONE has made it from a luxury commuter-cum-shopper service to a typical council-estate service bus... scratched names and hearts in seats, chewing gum, litter etc. Bus route 13 pretty much serves it with a few minute walk, there is the 13A... such a disaster relying on students to boost P&R!